Re: The Price Of Admission. Unacceptable.

[Jeff Williams <jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com>]

John Charles and all,

John Charles Broomfield wrote:
> 
> (...)
> > >  While that organization
> > > works well in the Nominet case one might ask why is it that ISPs are the
> > > ones who determine domain name policy.  Shouldn't other constituencies
> > > on the net have a say about domain names?
> >
> >   They are.  Like RIPE for instance.  Didn't you read Heathers post
> > closely?  Have you reasearched Nominet throughly?  Doesn't appers that
> > you have.  Or this question would not have come from you.
> 
> Erm, RIPE is made up basically by ISPs, and anyway, RIPE said (statement
> directly from them) that they were in the IP numbers distribution business,
> not the naming business. However, they also said that should their members
> want RIPE to have a say, then so it would be (and I think that the call was
> quite unanimous in that RIPE should get involved). But it IS basically an
> ISP organisation. The proportion of non-ISPs (which are basically academic
> institutions) in RIPE has gone done, mainly because ISPs have grown like
> mushrooms, while there continue to be the same amount of universities in
> general.
> So, if you're calling for non-ISP constituencies to get a vote, you don't
> get a biscuit for suggesting RIPE.

  Ok, I can concede that RIPE really is not a good example.  But it is
a weak one in respons/respect to Kent's comments in general.  Given that
I may be commiting the logical falicy of "Glitering generalities". 
Fine.
>;)  Dam I like biscuits!  
> 
> > > CORE, by contrast, is answerable to its members *and* to  PAB/POC.
> >   PAB has only advisory possition, therefore no real influence.  SO
> > this statment is only half true.  Read your own MoU.
> 
> I disagree strongly here. The fact that PAB is advisory means that *in
> theory* it could be completely ignored. In practice, it would mean a quick
> death to the whole system because of lack of legitimacy (yeah, I know,
> you're going to say it's not legit now anyway...)

  No, I am not saying that PAB/POC/CORE are not ligitimate exactly. But 
that is something that has and will continue to be debated.  I am saying
that in REALITY PAB has no significant influence, becouse they only
have 2 reps in POC.  2 into 12 goes 6 times.  That is dam little
influence in my opinion.  
> 
> (...)
> > > I imagine that CORE will elect a board, as well.  However, that is
> > > for the ISPs and other members to decide, I guess -- it is their
> > > organization -- just like Nominet.
> >   That is the problem.  It is "There Organization".  That should
> > say "OUR Organization".  Everyone that is a Internet user/stakeholder.
> 
> I think you're right, I think that CORE is "OUR organisation". And I do
> believe that anyone who wants a say in it can have one!

  Yes, as long as they pony up $10k and meet all the other requirnments
that POC has determined are necessary.  That is not anyone!

> You can have a say through:
> -PAB
> -IAB
> -ISOC
> -INTA
> -IANA
> -ITU
> -WIPO
> -being a registrar
> And of course lobbying any part of the above that you wish!!!
> Anybody who REALLY wants to take active part in this is sure to find some
> means of doing so.

> Now, as far as believing that every internet user is a stake holder in this,
> I think that's a bit far fetched. Maybe everybody who wants to register a
> domain, but not really many of those will give a damn to be honest.
> However, you can go ahead and organise a world-wide election of whatever you
> want...

  But this is what the gTLD-MoU folks should be doing if they are
going to espouse that this is an open process and they represent the
"Public Trust".  It should be part of POC's and COREs job.
> 
> > > Consider your example of democratic process, Nominet.  The members
> > > freely elect their board (as CORE will almost assuredly do), but you
> > > have to pay $800 to be a member (with CORE you have to pay much more,
> > > but that will change to a level similar to Nominet).
> >
> >   Well CORE has YET do be a freely elected body. SO your comparison
> > is weak here.
> 
> The comparison is quite exact. The board of directors within nominet is
> democratically elected by the nominet members. Core will probably
> democratically elect a board of directors. Where's the flaw?

  The key term here is "Probably".  That has not been done yet.
I will believe that when I see it.  In addition Nominet's board was
selected by members of the ISP's and RIPE users and members in a vote
of all, not just a select few.  So, yes I stand by this statment.
> 
> > > Nominet has no structured way to get policy input from other
> > > constituencies.  This is not true for the MoU -- there is a "Policy
> > > Oversight Committee" that is selected from a wide range of
> > > constituencies.  The structure is such that other representatives can
> > > be added, and anyone can join PAB and vote on the PAB representatives
> > > to POC -- PAB is explicitly chartered with carrying wide ranging
> > > input to the POC.
> >
> >   Yes PAB has "Input"  but nothing binding.  Not good enough.
> 
> It does have "binding" in that it will get 2 members onto POC. (modification
> approved already).

  Again 2 into 12 goes 6 times.  Not very binding.  Not a good
structure.
Not good enough.  !2 members representing ALL of the internet community
is not
good enough and not even remotely possible to claim broad representation
of stakeholders/users of the internet.  In addition with a 1/6th
influence
of 2 PAB members on POC, that is very week if they are supposed to
represent the brodest spectrum of stakeholders.  The representation
of PAB members, under this terrible structure should be more like
1/2 of the POC membership.
> 
> > >  Many POC
> > > representatives will be selected through *elections* from their
> > > sponsoring organizations (the PAB observers were elected.)
> >
> >   PAB members were elected?  Really?  By whom?  Hell I didn't
> > get a vote! Ahhhh, but I didn't sigh the MoU either.  Now I get
> > it.  Though I have been in the internet software buisness for
> > 9 years and involved with the development of the Internet for
> > nearly 20 years, if I don't sign the MoU I have no "Input"
> > the the DNS name space managment process.  That's wonderful!
> > And SOOOOO democratic as well....  Oh boy!
> 
> PAB *observers* were elected. And as you may expect, it was PAB who elected
> who would be observing on their behalf.
> Seeing what a wonderful job you've done on the internet software business
> these last 9 years, it's evident that you can give your "input" through
> various means to more than one of the organisations above mentioned (or even
> become part of them).

  We are doing just that.  And will continue to do so.  I will be in
Washington DC today later speeking with some folks at the US Commerce
Dept. as a matter of fact.
> 
> Yours, John Broomfield.

Regards,
-- 
Jeffrey A. Williams
DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java Development Eng.
Information Eng. Group. IEG. INC. 
Phone :913-294-2375 (v-office)
E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com