Re: ISPs as stakeholders

[Jim Dixon <jdd@matthew.uk1.vbc.net>]

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Dave Crocker / IMC wrote:

> >Dave, give us a break.  Really.  You suggested that a move from California
> >to Virginia was on a par with a move from the US to Switzerland.  I 
> 
> Jim, perhaps you have heard that legal analysis and decision-making pay
> some attention to precedent.

Go ahead, Dave ...

> The move from CA to VA was a change in legal jurisdiction and was done
> without consulting the installed base of users.  That is exactly what would
> be done in the planned move of registry from VA to Switzerland.  The degree
> of autonomy between states is considerable.  The change in geographic venue
> was consideerable.  The users were not consulted about the change.  In
> other words, all of the salient legal features of the previous change match
> the one being planned for the current one.

Someone was mugged in the city centre last year.  They weren't asked 
before they were mugged.  The pain was considerable.  Therefore I can
mug someone this evening because a precedent has been established.

This isn't how precedent works.  I don't care if people get mugged every
night.  That doesn't establish its legality.

> Other factors make this case stronger but you are unwilling to apply even
> basic legal models, so the rest of the subtleties are hardly worth pursuing.

This is your notion of subtlety??
 
> >Notice that Dave considers a claim that a question has been answered at
> >some point in the past equivalent to answering the question.  Bizarre.
> 
> By gosh you are right.  It is much more reasonable for you to succeed in a
> denial of service attack, whereby you and others can clog the discussions
> and prevent legitimate consideration of new topics, 

One of the problems here is that you personally never raise new topics.
You lurk at the sidelines, waiting for some poor fool to say something.
When someone does you
1	tell them to "do their homework" if they ask a question (the 
	question is ignored)
2	attack them personally if they persist (the question is ignored)
3	cite unidentified authorities if they disagree with you (the 
	question is still ignored)
4	claim that whatever issue is being discussed was discussed several
	months ago if you have no other recourse (and the question remains
	ignored)
5	claim that the question is really about something else, and then 
	discuss that ad nauseum (and, yes, the original question remains
	ignored)

This is the true "denial of service" attack.  Anyone daring to say anything
on this list is subjected to unending personal attacks or buried in 
meaningless BS.  

>                                                     by constantly raising
> the same old stale questions and, somehow, claim that we are expected to
> take them seriously and answer them carefully each time. 

The "stale old question" is 

*	if CORE is simply going to register names in .firm/store/rubbish,
	then who cares if it is based in Geneva or Timbuktoo?

*	but if CORE is to take over control of com/net/org, most of whose
	registrants are US citizens -- well over 90% -- the transfer of
	the registry out of the US into a foreign jurisdiction must be
	explicitly justified.

*	if the com/net/org registry is to be transferred out of the US,
	the choice of Geneva in Switzerland must be explicitly justified.

As I said earlier today, CORE's domicile is very much an open question 
at this point.  It can be easily moved to North America -- hmmm, Toronto,
anyone?

You want to gloss this over and make this look like a done deal.  It
isn't.
 
>                                                           Clearly it is
> unreasonable to, instead, expect you to consult the archives and find the
> multiple occurrences of the responses. 

Yes, Dave, especially since the person asking the same bloody question 
over and over again is me.
 
>                                        Silly of me to think that you
> should actually have to do some work, rather than your demanding the work
> from others.

I know how hard it is for you to say "do your homework" rather than doing
any yourself.

--
Jim Dixon                                                 Managing Director
VBCnet GB Ltd                http://www.vbc.net        tel +44 117 929 1316
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Member of Council                                                 President
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