Re: ETSI vs. Magaziner whose interests? (my LAST on this)

[Jim Dixon <jdd@vbc.net>]

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Sascha Ignjatovic wrote:

> euroispa is a closed club of isp and isoc is a open 

EuroISPA is a trade association.  Any organisation in Europe with
an interest in the Internet can join.

> organisation to EVERYONE not only to isp's 
> 
> do you claim isp's or euroispa represents the internet ?

If governments seek opinions on medical policies, they go to medical
associations.  If governments in Europe seek opinions on Internet 
issues, they can go to their national Internet trade associations.
EuroISPA was formed to represent the European Internet industry in
Brussels.  

We do not claim to "represent the Internet" -- nor am I sure what 
such a claim would mean.
 
> > Precisely then what backs ISOC's claim to represent anything 
> > at all??
> 
> the isoc are people and organisations who hase developed and runed the 
> internet from 0  so therefor they represent the internet as a CONCEPT 

I see.  Sort of a natural aristocracy of the Internet, is that it?
  
> > I don't.  I simply dispute ISOC's claim to represent the users of 
> > the Internet.
> 
> sory..  who represents the users of the internet ?

No one, Sascha, no one.
 
> > Personally I believe that in 1998 the best "representative" of the 
> > end user is his or her Internet service provider.  The ISPs offer
> > users a choice of Internet policies.  They choose their provider and
> > thereby choose their preferred policy.
> 
> the isps can become something wich could represent the users of the 
> internet but by this you could not become the ruling autorithy for the
> internet

Personally I don't believe that the Internet can or should be ruled.
We don't need any self-selected ruling authority.  
 
> but you representing just your part of user and not alle users
> so you dont have the global autority 

An ISP doesn't "represent" an end user in any normal sense of the
word.  But ISPs, software manufacturers, etc, come closer than anyone
else.

The Internet is among other things a commodity.  This is how users see
the Internet: it's something that they can get and use, something very
similar to a hamburger.  Users express their preferences about hamburgers
by going to McDonalds or Burger King or Wendys or whatever.  They 
express their preferences about what the Internet should be like by
choosing an ISP, using Netscape instead of MSIE, downloading this or 
that piece of software.

We see the Internet as something else.  But that is the end user view
of the Internet.  Do we represent Internet users?  No.  Does ISOC?  Not
at all.  
 
> isoc and its predecesor organisations have helped to organize a working
> management infrastrukture for the internet where you as isp hase come
> later and now you claim to be more competent and importend than isoc ???
> becouse you offer some access to the internet wich was builded by others?

The Internet today is overwhelmingly commercial.  Most of it was built
within the last year or two by the Internet service providers and 
others in the Internet industry.
 
> > A 2M circuit from Frankfurt to London costs about $45,000.  A 2M
> > circuit from Frankfurt to New York costs about $50,000.  Why is the
> > easy bit so expensive?  Why is it so cheap to cross 5,000 miles of
> > open sea?  
> 
> becouse europeans are not so advanced as americans :-)

No.  Because the telecoms industry in the United States is substantially
deregulated whereas very large chunks of the industry in Europe are run
by monopolies and cartels.
 
> > Mr Sascha, the ISPs of Europe would be mad to trust ISOC to solve this
> > particular problem.  EuroISPA is working actively to reduce cross-
> > border telecoms charges within Europe.  We will be happy to be judged by 
> > results achieved over the next couple of years.
> 
> why not let the isoc and euroispa work together to achive this goal !!??

Is this a formal approach from ISOC?  :-)

> or dou you think the isps of the earth could be ablle to build up the 
> GOVERNMENT OF THE INTERNET and RULE them of course ?

The Internet does not need a government.
 
> do you mean only the isps and their user should "run" the internet ?
> 
> "you"(isps+user) can be a importend part in the system of internet
> selfgovernace but not "the brain" of it -you have to show us little 
> more for that :-)

I see.  You represent the brains, do you?

--
Jim Dixon                  VBCnet GB Ltd           http://www.vbc.net
tel +44 117 929 1316                             fax +44 117 927 2015